Rift borrows liberally from WoW. One way is that soul points are automatically granted as one levels. Now, Rift admittedly is different in that your basic skills aren't unlocked for you until points are spent in the coinciding tree.

I far prefer two separate treadmills and have brought this up on these forums before. As I see it, separating AA from the regular leveling experience offers a deeper and more rewarding experience. A system like EQ2's provides another goal and reason to play. In the end we all play for achievement and to become more powerful - gaining levels, fame points or rankings, pve gear, pvp gear. Tying AA to level removes one motivation from that list.

A separate track for AA provides a sense of accomplishment far more frequent than only leveling - with each notice of AA gained I feel it - and then of course when I gain an AA level. EQ2's system solicits greater satisfaction from killing boss mobs than just loot - AA! Greater satisfaction from discovery - AA. Greater satisfaction from basic quest completion even - because the AA experience has a value to the player completely separate for the base experience.

One thing I love about EQ2 - despite its bowing down over and over to the more simplistic and streamlined WoWification - it yet again proves at its core it stands as a deeper and more complex game than most.

I'd go with the EQ2 method any time too, they've implemented something like it in DCUO, or at least I was levelling and getting skill points at different times. Levelling alone is a nice moment, getting an AA is sort of overshadowed at the same time.

But one thing I do have a problem with for both EQ1 and EQ2 is the complexity, I love complexity in a game, but year after year it seems to go up without any culling going on (at least in abilities+AA, the mechanics definitely get altered a lot).

The way I see it a game launches with a certain level of complexity thats judged right, players play that game and master it, an expansion is then needed to give both new content and something cool and new to play with game mechanics. But then expansion #2 comes along and adds another load of content (always good) but another cool and new thing to play with on top etc etc.

Because of that my Guardian has 32 combat damaging abilities, each time they add another ability it just means his DPS is spread even thinner over more button pushes, making each ability on its own less significant. For that reason I'd like to see a revamp of the abilities with EQ2, not taking it downto WoW levels of button pushes as EQ2 has always played differently, but back closer to 2006/2007. I'd also like to start seeing the AA abilities more often alter an existing CA rather then just adding a new one each time, and have new higher level abilities need more points to unlock.

From Potshot:



Good read over at PotShot / TAGN about Rift's leveling...

From TAGN:



I just don't get the dislike for using levels as an advancement qualifier within a game. I understand people getting upset that grouping can be based on leveling (and thus creating a gap between friends being able to play together), but I feel like it creates a framework that people can easily understand for themselves and mobs. It also quantifies (for better or worse) enemies and accomplishments within the game (ie the mob we took down was lvl X). I think that grouping divides should certainly be minimized for the playerbase, but I still am completely fine using leveling as an internal benchmark within a game. I like seeing other layers of systems on top of core leveling, but I think there needs to be a root that everyone can understand from game to game. I like the fact that if I have 5 friends who are lvl 85 deathknights in WOW that want me to come play with them, I know what type of time investment I am looking at and I decide about starting to play the game accordingly.

I absolutely hate levels (and classes) in games. Usually, when I take a break from EQ2 its because I've tired of the levels and classes. To me, they are both arbitrary and restrictive.

Why can't my 'level' 50 Guardian equip a level 51 sword? What magically happens between 50.99999 and 51 that suddenly gives me that ability?

The lack of levels and classes are the two big factors that continue to pull me to Eve and Entropia.

I would love a EQ2 style game where any player could equip any item at any time. Your skill would dictate your effectiveness with the item.

Grouping isn't an issue in a game without levels. A new player simply does less damage than an player with more time in game. No need for some silly mentoring mechanic.

Even pvp is better without levels. Skill drives your effectiveness with your equipment and your personal skill in playing your character determines who lives and dies.

The only thing you are doing there is moving the analysis to a new benchmark.

"Looking for a cleric with 550 dp (days played)"

In Entropia players are usually judged on Health. Nearly every skill contributes to health, some more than others, but total health is a pretty good indicator of how much (notice not how long) a person has been playing. Some players will use Agility as a marker of how much someone has played.

I'm not clear on what you're asking. Are you concerned about grouping?

Let's say in Entropia you're running around and you see a creature you've never seen before. How do you know if you can kill it? Well you try and see who dies first. Simple really. In games with levels you have this artificial number floating above the mobs head. In Entropia there is no such indicator. If you shoot and you get pwned you mark that down and you're a little smarter for the experience.

With regards to PvP both Eve and Entropia have scanners that are available that allow you to get some sense of how 'strong' a player is. In Entropia the scanner will show you the armor and weapon equipped, the players health and agility. In Eve the scanner will show you what ship is being flown which is a big indicator as to what the pilot is up to.

Maybe an analogy would help.

Imagine a person visiting the USA from South America. They have never seen a basketball let alone played the sport. Now lets say they go visit Madison Square Garden and the Knicks are playing a practice game and they want this visitor to participate.

In EQ2 the Knick Players would have Level 90 floating above their heads. The visitor would have level 1. The visitor could not group with the Knick Players unless then mentored down to him. Problem is, their skills are reduced by this and now they miss even the easiest shots. Heck, they can't even dribble now.

In Entropia the visitor would walk on the court and join the team. The visitor would be terrible but the Knicks would retain all their skills. With each dribble and shot the visitor would get better. The Knicks wouldn't really 'skill up' during this practice game because this is very routine stuff that they have done millions of times. At first, the Knick players wouldn't know how 'skilled' the visitor was but after a few missed shots it would be clear this guy is a noob. The veteran Knick players would have to find the best way for this new and low skilled player to contribute to the team. Perhaps he can play defense?



In Eve you often see Corporations recruit based on skill points. But 'days played' means nothing when doing missions or mining. If you can fly the ship you can participate and contribute. I've never see a LFG in either game requesting a player with a certain number of days played. In Entropia days played means even less because any player can equip any weapon (there are a few exceptions.) In Entropia, a player with uber gear and 5 years of experience can group with a brand new player with noob gear without any special game mechanics. The new players simply does less damage and maybe dies more often due to less health and lower quality armor. Usually, players divide loot up by damage done since there is a loot option for this.



When you say 'gate' I think 'hand-holding.' Now Frodo you know you're too young to go fight those big bears. Stand here and wack on a few hundred snakes first. Then go hit those badgers.


You need a gate in EQ2 because there is an end game. In both Eve and Entropia the end is open. There is no end. There is no final zone where the ring gets tossed back by Frodo and the game is over.

Power-leveling isn't an issue in a game without levels.

In Entropia skills are gained by engaging in an action. You shoot your rifle and gain rifle skill as well as aim, agility, laser weapon technology,etc. This allows ubers and newbs to freely group because skill gain is based on each players actions.

In Eve skill gain is time based and does not depend on anything else so power-leveling is also impossible. Again a newb and uber can freely group because there are no level restrictions.

When you put restrictions in a game like levels, classes, etc you are forced to build up an entire system based solely on enforcing those restrictions. Having a game with classes means you have to have class restrictive armor. Have a game with levels and you need grouping restrictions.
Entropia is a free download at planetcalypso.com - give it a try for 30 days. If you really want to experience a gameworld without classes or levels join a decent society and make a small investment. You may never play a class based game again.